Author: SENSEI RICHARD NORTON
Thanks for finding the time in your busy schedule for this interview, Richard.
RN: That’s fine. I’ve just got back from working on a new film with Jackie Chan in Hong Kong called “City Hunter”, and I’m currently enjoying a hard-earned rest for a short time, before going on to the US.
TH: You are an international ambassador for Australian martial artists. How do you think martial arts in Australia are viewed by other international stars?
RN: I think that as of late Australian martial artists are seen as being pretty good. Chuck Norris, for instance, has been out here and has a lot of respect for us. I first met Chuck in 1976, when he was doing demonstrations at a tournament Bob Jones and I had organised. We had some first-class demonstrations of our own that day, so he had his first introduction to what it was like in Australia. I think he was pleasantly surprised at our standard. Since then I’ve been training with Chuck regularly over the years, and I’ve had a few friends come and train with him. He’s very familiar with Stan Longinidis, who he met when we did some training down at the Jet Centre where Stan trains, and he’s also seen guys like Tassis Petridis training there. So, in other words, Chuck’s had a good introduction to Australians and their martial arts, and as a result he has a lot of respect for them.
Australians overseas have a reputation as having a strong drive, and a real yearning to learn and improve. When Benny Urquidez came out for seminars, he noticed that whatever the Australians lacked in knowledge, they more than made up for in their determination and thirst for that knowledge. And he’s commented about that several times to me.
Ruben Urquidez (Benny’s brother and trainer), who is in the world class kick boxing scene, is of the opinion that it’s no longer a case of Americans coming out to give the Australians a bit of experience, it’s now that they’re coming out to really fight, because the Australians know what they’re doing. That was proven at the “clash of the titans” kickboxing night not long ago when Stan defeated Dennis Alexio, and Darren Hedgecock and Tassis Petridis both won by knockouts. Ruben felt his guys had pretty much worked the Aussies out, but the result was the opposite.
I’m not sure what Jean Claude van Damme thinks of Australian martial arts. I’m not sure how much he even knows about it, because, as you know, there haven’t been many Australians other than myself doing films in any great abundance.
TH: What are your personal views on martial arts in Australia when compared with what you have seen of the rest of the world?
RN: I think Australia compares very favourably with the rest of the world, and our martial artists are more than equal with the average American martial artist. In the States they are very much into the tournament scene, and from a traditional viewpoint I think that waters things down as far as what the arts are all about. Australia has tended to keep more of the traditional training in the way of kat a and the meditative aspects of our martial arts.
TH: So would you say that, on average, Australian black belts are of the same standard as American black belts?
RN: My idea is that your grade is really only valid within your particular organisation, and in many cases within your particular school. If I grade my guys to black belt, they’ll be up to my particular grading standards. But if I’m an instructor who’s doing it for a living, and keeping students is what determines whether I eat next week or pay the rent, then maybe I’m going to compromise the ability and standard I expect of a student going for black belt.
Really your grade is specific to what you do. If you are a shodan in Kyokushinkai, where perhaps the standards are very much regulated, then you will be pretty equal to a Kyokushinkai shodan in Japan.
Outside of that though, there are differences in forms and sparring with, let’s say, Goju.
I’ve noticed that when I’ve been training at different places, like at the Jet Centre, there are so many guys coming in and talking to Benny about what they do and what their rank is. Benny will say “let’s not talk about it, let’s hop in the ring and work out!”, and they will reply “Oh no! We only train to kill! We only use death touch!”. Benny says “Well, I’m willing to take my chances. Surprise me!”
So I guess the point I’m making is that it really gets down to ability. Grade or rank is not of that great importance to me. When I go and train with the Machado’s family branch of the Gracie Jujitsu system, I train in shorts, not in my black belt karate uniform. The instructor Rigan who I train with, who is just absolutely phenomenal and only 24 years old, also trains in shorts. His rank is irrelevant, it’s his ability that’s going to show out.
The important thing is that you are wearing a belt you feel totally comfortable and confident of, and you’re very self-assured with that belt. If you’re talking about an average black belt, you could put on a 4th degree or a 5th degree and say “well, I’m as good as that one, but maybe not quite as good as that one”, but that’s not what it’s all about for me. I think people too often accept mediocrity, but I don’t want to be mediocre. J just want to learn now, and keep learning and participating. Martial artists have to keep putting themselves on the time.
TH: At present you are training with the Gracie family jujitsu system. What have been your experiences there?
RN: When I first started training with Rickson Gracie, he had one of his brown belts simply sit on my back, and all I had to do was get him off. I couldn’t, for the life of me. Nothing I did could get him off me. To get on the mat and have somebody I outweighed by 45lbs make me feel so totally helpless in a grappling sense, was just incredible. Another black belt here said to me “doesn’t it get your ego a bit, that after 30 years of training these guys that are only in their 20s could make you feel totally helpless?” And after I thought about it I said “No, it just excites the hell out of me!” Because if I had been able to just half control them with strength, I wouldn’t have trained with them. The fact that I was helpless due to their ability and technique just excited me. My goal is to be as close to black belt standard in their particular style by the end of 1993.
When I was training with Bob (Jones), Bill Thorpe (Billy Thorpe & the Aztecs) was training with Zen Do Kai. He once had this feeling that no matter what he had achieved outside in the way of fame and fortune (and in those days he was a lot more well known than he is now), he was a beginner standing at the end of the line. Eventually, with training, he moved up the line, and there were other beginners on the other side of him. The feeling of personal achievement that was completely irrelevant to anything he’d done outside of the dojo was thrilling to him, it
was like being reborn. His effort and his application determined his rank and how far he progressed in this world he’d ventured into, in the way of his martial arts training.
That’s how I’ve felt with my jujitsu training, like a rebirth, something completely new. It’s a whole new challenge for me. The idea of being on the ground with their blue belts and green belts, and getting choked out and arm barred, is almost fun, you know! But that’s okay, because by the end of 1993 they’re not going to be doing that! (Laughter)
John (Will) and I noticed that when Rigan and the boys came out here for seminars, they would get out the front on their backs and invite everyone in the seminar to come out, one by one, hop on top and go for it. 10-15 seconds later they would choke you or put you in an arm bar, and you’d tap out. It’s always amazing to me that the last ones to get up and try are usually the black belts in either judo or jujitsu. I thought “Why is that? Is it their egos?”, because they should be eager to test their skills.
If I can get up after 30 years of training and get out in front of all those people and get arm barred out in 10 seconds, and don’t have a problem with it, then no-one else really should.
That’s the problem with a lot of the arts; people wear 50 colours, fold their arms and teach. But heaven forbid if they should have to unfold their arms and get found out for what it is they don’t know. They can become like peacocks, strutting around, rather than just participating, putting themselves on the line, and saying “Well, where am I really at?”
One guy in the states had been teaching jujitsu for many years and had his own school with 30-40 students. He came in wanting to try the Machados system, and did a class with them. He got down on the mat with someone, it might have even been John (Will), who didn’t even have a complete knowledge of that Brazilian jujitsu system, and got arm barred and choked out time after time! He then, on that night, put on a white belt, announced that he was closing his school, and told his students that if they wanted to train they had to go to the Machados school. And he’s still training with them. I think it’s great that somebody’s willing to say “I’m not where I should be. I’m not where I think my ability should be as an instructor, and I’m going to do someing Takasaka-sensei (Keishin-Kan karate) performing kata about 20 years ago. Looking at him doing it put such a strong feeling in my mind. He was 5th degree at that stage, and I thought I didn’t even want to know about 5th degree until I felt I could represent kata the same way, and affect somebody the same way he affected me when he was doing it. I didn’t even want to know about 5th degree until I felt that I could represent kata the same way, and affect somebody the same way he affected me when he was doing it. To this day I’m still 4th degree.”
TH: Having the right attitude is very important in martial arts. It sounds like that jujitsu instructor certainly had good spirit!
RN: He did. I always remember see this day I’m still 4th degree. It was the same when my original instructor, Tino Ceberano, performed kata. It was beautiful to watch. Correct spirit is very important in your training.
